This post is continuing on with the discussions I had with Bristinie (BRK's ex-guild lock, currently on hiatus to recuperate and refocus on RL for a bit) focussing on the Wonderful Ways of Demonology. I'm basically just going to let Bristine run the proceedings here - for part 2 of our conversation (first part here), I asked him about his cast rotations, some general thoughts on cursing, some further insight on raiding as a demonologist and lastly the key talents that go towards making a good raiding build warlock. What I received was a well thought-out response that reflects many of my own opinions, and many more - its a shame he rolls as a pretty boy Alliance or I'd do my best to poach him. Here is a great example of what everyone should want to see in a raider - someone that isn't satisfied in just knowing "what" they're meant to do, but also seeks to understand the "why" of it all. As someone that has spent a fair amount of time recruiting, take it from me that these are rare traits to see...However, on with the show - I'll comment on a couple of things as we go, but I'm mainly back seat driving, this is Bristinie's show today.
Bristinie:
First, my cast rotation, first, your curse, all warlocks should always have a curse up at all times on the target, and demonology locks should use whichever their warlock class leader assigns them, on all bosses before a DPS curse is used, make sure at LEAST CoE and CoS is up. Once those two are set, (hopefully by a warlock with malediction) my curse of choice is either CoD or CoR, depending on the boss. On a boss that hits like a wimp, like Leo, I like CoR, for Tidewalker, I'd use CoD. CoD, while having lower dps than CoA, allows for more freedom in rotation, and will usually increase overall dps by allowing you a few more shadowbolts per minute, when you would be using GCD's on refreshing CoA.
TeePee:
I've covered most of my thoughts on cursing here - while CoE and CoS are certainly staples, depending on your raid make-up CoR may be of as much or even more use to you. Bristinie's definitely right about picking your bosses - any boss with abilities based on their AP is generally a bad choice for using CoR unless you greatly out-gear the encounter.
As for the CoA vs CoD debate, the maths speaks for itself. In just 2 minutes of fight time, you can cast CoD twice, or CoA 5 times. With the global cooldown taken into account, the 3 extra casts of CoA is 4.5 seconds, which is "nearly" 2 shadowbolts worth of cast time (1.8 if you want to be exact). If you add those 2 shadowbolts on top of your CoD damage, you'll no doubt find yourself a long way in front and hopefully see why a lower dps spell can actually still increase your total DPS.
Bristinie:
Then, your two other DoTs, Corruption and Immolate. I use both, and because I do, I do not advise Demo warlocks (before very high content) to use shadow damage only gear. The bonus to your shadow DPS and FG DPS will either barely or not at all outweigh having a smaller, but equal amount of fire damage, because Immolate can crit, while your shadow DoT's cannot, this can mean a huge difference in damage done over the course of the fight. I always use Corruption then Immolate, because then they will finish at exactly the same time to refresh them again, barring the T4/4pc bonus (I am not sure how that would affect my cast rotation, I only run with three of my five pieces anymore).
TeePee:
The other reason I always liked to cast Corruption before Immolate was due to the initial damage component of Immolate - casting Corruption first gives your tanks those couple of extra seconds to get a better agro lead so a big immolate crit coupled with an unlucky run for your tank doesn't mean you pull agro early. Strictly speaking this should rarely be an issue, but even the best tank will occasionally run into a string of dodges and/or misses and just not get that intial burst of agro they'd normally like.
Bristinie:
Once those are ticking, shadowbolt. Over and over and over. Shadowbolt will make up for a massive percentage of a demonology warlock's DPS, usually about 50%.
TeePee:
The shadow mage sees your 50%, and raises you 50%!
*tumbleweeds*
/sigh
Bristinie:
Now, while you're doing that, there are an incredible number of things one should monitor (you can very easily get away without some of these, but I prefer to know more about what is going on in my raid than less). I watch first, my DoT timer, I use ClassTimer for it, but to each their own for that. Then Thooghun, my felguard. He is the reason I am doing as much damage to the boss as I am. Then, my own health, and mana, for obvious reasons. Those are the things that every demo warlock HAS to monitor to be successful, I choose to also watch my healers. I use Grid for my raid frames, and enable range checking, and mana bars. This way I know whether I need to use a Healthstone, if it is safe to Lifetap, and the likelihood I need to be heading to a corner to Hellfire (I do not condone Hellfiring yourself to death if your raid leader does not approve of it, trust me, it isn't worth the problems it can cause). By watching my healers, I can effectively estimate how safe I am to be lifetapping, and saving potion CD's for health pots, because a living warlock does a lot more dps than a dead one.
After all of that, I watch Omen. Thats right, Omen comes last. This is because demonology is the most threat efficient of the warlock specs. It has 0 inherent threat reduction, but, 30% or so of my damage comes from my felguard. So I can show up as doing 1200 dps on a boss fight, but only 900 of that would be attributed to me, which salv reduces to 600 or so, which is well below what a tank should be able to generate at the t4-5 gear level.
TeePee:
If you're thinking about rolling with demonology, re-read that last paragraph. Seriously.
Bristinie:
As a demonology warlock, one can reasonably expect a ton of damage in a raid environment, but at the cost of fragility. I know that sounds all wrong because of Soul Link, which should always be on, but the fragility of your spec comes in your felguard. A felguard can take very little punishment in a raid environment compared to an average melee, and very few healers would even consider healing one. You always have to know every boss from both the melee and ranged DPS perspective to be successful as a demonologist, letting a buffed felguard die is a huge waste, and as far as I've seen that can always be avoided.
As a demonologist, there are a few key talents to have if you want to raid with your felguard. I raid with a classic 6/44/11 spec, which works very very well all up until t6 content, where the optimal spec would have more points in destruction to utilize the reduced Shadow Bolt threat and increased range. However, I agree that if one is spending points in demonology at all, there are a few key talents that one should be going towards, Improved HS, and Imp, then Demonic Sacrifice, then Soul Link, then Felguard (I strongly encourage anyone that may be taking a Felguard as their primary pet to also take at least one point in mana feed and three in demonic resilience). Along the way, the points you pick do not matter much, as long as they make sense, as it is those key talents most people will spec into that encourages them to touch any of the lower demonology talents.
As a demonologist, one of the most powerful tools you have, is the ability to desummon your felguard, and resummon them nearly instantaneously, by using a macro. The gist of it is that you can instantly dismiss your felguard, who will come back at full health and mana, and all of his previous buffs, which translate into spell damage for the demonologist. Abuse this. Anytime a felguard is even remotely close to death, I would resummon, and go on back to my rotation.
So, there you have it - basic demonology raiding guidelines in a nutshell. Hopefully we'll hear more from Bristinie with the occasional guest spot, and he'll return to the ranks of the WoW masses in the near future.

15 comments:
Good stuff. Nice summary of Demonology raiding. What a lot of people don't realize, is that at T4/T5 gear levels, Felguard is the highest dps spec for a warlock. It is also the hardest to effectively manage.
Two things that help Felguard locks immensely ... Void Star Talisman from Solarian (increases pet resistances by 130) and any two pieces of T5 (heals pet for 15% of the damage you do).
Question for those "in the know" about demo raiding:
How does overall DPS output for demo locks compare to the other specs for top-end raiding? We're just starting Sunwell and our destro locks are consistently pushing 1700-2000 DPS (raid-buffed, in a caster-friendly group), while our affliction lock runs at around 1200 DPS (on a good day).
Would a demonology warlock be able to put out anything close to the destro numbers? Sunwell is very much about min-maxing (we're not even going to bring the affliction lock to Brutallus), and I'd like to give demonology a trial run, but I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile.
Thanks!
@ Logan: You're past my personal raiding experience, but I do hang with a few ex-guild locks now in end-game raiding. General consensus from them is once you get your t6 bonus its all about destruction; out of the 4 of them that are now doing sunwell regularly, none of them have gone back to demonology since they started hitting BT regularly, and 3 of them were running demonology through t5 (I know that doesn't really answer your question, just thought it might put a different perspective on it).
@ patrick - thanks for stopping by :) I'm mid-way through a post about gear to keep an eye on once you get to 25 man raiding, I'll have both those pieces of info included, thanks!
I never would have thought for even a moment of Felguard being a good raiding spec... though the last time I was demonology was about level 30. :P I guess no matter how much research and theorycrafting you do, there's always something new to learn... and that's one of the things I love about WoW.
That said, I'm still pretty convinced that Male spec is the best overall for the ten mans when you're the only lock in the raid like I usually am. I'm actually partially through a long, detailed post on raiding as Affliction. Since you've said before you don't have much experience with afflic, maybe you should take a look at it once it's up sometime this week.
Great blog as always, and I look forward to reading more. :)
Oh, and sorry about the previous comment deletion.... felt the need to fix typos and there was no other way to do it. >_>;
As far as high end raiding goes, the spec shifts a few points out of affliction and into destruction, to maximize damage output with the gear available at the top of the line level.
0/43/18 is the spec I plan on using once I reach the real end game stuff, and certainly once I can make use of the t6 set bonus. The extra shadowbolt range and reduced threat along with improved crit make this the absolute highest dps demonology spec assuming you can gear for it. I find that this spec however is much worse for grinding, which I still spend a hefty amount of time doing.
The benefits of the 21/40 spec are that you get a 15% flat increase to SB, and the 20% spell damage bonus to the SB coefficient, and ruin.
43/18 offers 10% flat bonus to all damage, a significant spell damage increase via DK, and FG damage, and 2% more crit.
I can't tell you which does more, but I can tell you it certainly isn't a blowout either way. I can however tell you that if you are ever limited by threat at that level that demonology is the way to go. You will see at most an insignificant DPS decrease (and a probable DPS increase because) with the heightened threat ceiling you can just go wild.
Muahahahaha, demo 1, destro 0
I was talking with a couple of locks that have cleared BT over the weekend and the feedback I got was that it becomes much more difficult to keep your felguard alive once you hit BT, obviously largely impacting your dps, which was the final decision maker for a couple of them to switch to destruction. No argument about it definitely being the most functional spec through SSC/TK tho. I'm leaning towards destruction for Hyjal so far - there's just so much AE required, its hard to compare to a shadow mage numbers (although the demo spec is certainly still more than pulling it weight).
@Bristinie- Thanks a lot for clarifying a bit on the high-end demo raiding! As far as there being no clear "blowout" either way, I think you're not giving enough credit to Ruin.
Ruin is, in my opinion, the cornerstone of any destro build. 100% more damage from crits is pretty significant, especially in t6 where it's pretty common to see a lock with 1300 spell damage, >25% crit (with talents), and fully hit-capped. Factor all the spell haste on newer gear into the equation and you have a warlock that's throwing out a 7-10k shadowbolt crit every 6 or 7 seconds, in addition to his/her usual SB spam.
Unless a felguard's damage scales well with the lock's stats, I don't see how demo can hold a candle to destro once stats hit a certain baseline (kind of how destro leaves affliction in the dust sometime in the middle of SSC/TK).
I'm not trying to be a naysayer. In fact, I'd really like a viable alternative to spamming shadowbolt all the time and calling it "high-end raiding." I guess if pet stats scaled better with the lock's stats, the decision between trees would be more difficult.
Are there any WWS parses out there showing demo locks putting out the 1700-2000 DPS that tier 6 locks are capable of? If not, is it because these numbers are unattainable or just because people are unwilling to try something new?
Well, to answer your question, no, pet scaling is not something we warlocks have in spades.
A FG gets a percentage of my spell damage put into his AP and so the better I get, the better he gets, to a point. This is because I run with 202 hit to cap, but my FG runs with... last I checked... 0. Hunters have a talent in their BM tree that allows their pet to hit 4% more, we have no such talent, and so Thooghun will always be slightly behind a hunter's kitty.
As Blizzard added new stats to the game like spell haste, they didn't (in my humble opinion) go as in depth with them as they should have. Pet scaling becomes a huge problem when the stats their masters are looking for are shifted away from those that happen to scale.
As far as Ruin (and the surrounding Shadow Mage spec) is concerned, it offers a modifier to the damage you deal as a function of the base. you would deal 2k on a regular bolt, then 3K on a crit, now you'll deal 4k on a crit, and 4.8k on a ISB crit.
Lets call this the top down approach.
Demo uses the bottom up.
With FG, SL and DK, one changes not the modifiers applied to their base damage, but the base damage itself.
With my felguard out and fully raid buffed I can reasonably expect 27-30% crit, hit capped, and up to as much as 1500 spell damage. All before setting foot in MH/BT. The amount of that given to me by being demonology is 2% extra crit and 300 extra spell damage from a raid buffed FG. Then I add FG DPS on top of that. Then I add SL's 10% modifier to all damage I deal with my FG out.
This is why it is a close fight between Shadow Mage and FG raiding, but as TeePee mentioned, in the later encounters keeping a FG up and running can be so difficult that it will push even the most devoted demonologists to shadow magery.
With the 43/18 spec, all of the demonologists self damage comes from SB(and possibly CoD), so it benefits nearly equally from the T6 bonus. It is merely the nature of the fights that prevent people from toting a FG spec, not the nature of the damage capacities of demonology.
"It is merely the nature of the fights that prevent people from toting a FG spec, not the nature of the damage capabilities of demonology"
Well said, that's pretty much what I was trying to say, just not as well - the only real reason I've been given by any of the guys that have left demonology was the issue with keeping FG up; the 4 piece t6 bonus is just icing on the cake.
With the addition of new t6 pieces in SWP, perhaps some endgame locks will be able to go back to demo. 4-piece t6 bonus plus 2-piece t5 bonus plus the Solarian trinket? Methinks we have a warlock with killer shadowbolts AND a pet that's hard as hell to kill.
I agree, it makes demo raiding more plausible at those levels, but why should anyone use lower quality gear just for a set bonus?
In my opinion the FG avoidance needs to be ramped way the hell up to a hunter pet's, or we should be able to spec our pets into resistances, or we should have a HoT.
I don't mind when blizzard attempts to make every spec viable, I mind when they do it poorly and reduce the user has in frustration of trying to play the way they want.
There should be the word fun in that last sentence by the way. whoops.
Great post! I have a raid specced Demonology Warlock and have been trying to get other Warlocks to realize that Demonology is a great spec for awhile now. I've gone to Hyjal and ended 4th in DPS behind some Arcane Mages (damn those heavy AOE encounters!).
You both hit the nail right on the head. Having a dismiss/resummon macro is a godsend and keeping a Curse, Corruption and Immolate up help a ton. CoR is another thing a lot of people are hesitant on using because it doesn't up the Warlocks dps.. but lowering the armor of a boss increases your Felguards DPS. Not to mention every melee class you brought.
By the time this information sinks in to other Warlocks, it'll be time to level to 80!
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